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ntnt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ntnt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: paddle bone
    Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 4:58pm
Hi
Can anyone help with an id on this bone with bite marks. It comes from the oxford clay and i,m guessing its a ichthyosaur/plesiosaur tibia/fibia or radius/ulna. Its got quite a lot of bite marks probably from scavenging after death.
Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ophthalmosaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 9:42pm

It's a radius from the ichthyosaur Ophthalmosaurus. Nice find. Some of the marks are probably cartilage or ligament attachment facets.

Paul






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Post Options Post Options   Quote ntnt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 11:18pm
Thanks for the id, i think most of the holes on the outside are ligament/tendon attachments as you say. but there are quite a lot of marks on either face of the bone.
 
Neil.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ophthalmosaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 10:47am

Hi Neil

Yes, as you say some of the marks on the face of the bone look like predator damage. Interesting because of their oval shape and wide spacing. Any ideas? Did this come from a coastal location? Have you found any other vertebrate fossils from the Oxford clay at that location?

Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bill G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 11:13am
Nice specimens. The 'predation' marks are interesting.
Bill
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MrPolly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 11:30am
Nice find, Neil. well done.

Paul, that's one hell of a fossil you have there!

Cheers,
Mr P.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ophthalmosaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 3:08pm

Thanks Mr.Polly. I was interested in your recent finds at Lyme Regis. They look like dorsals. Nice preservation and as you say there must have been more attached. Also that fish is a great find with the fins visible top and bottom. Did you get an ID on it?

Here is a bit more of that beast (sadly there was no head):


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Post Options Post Options   Quote ntnt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 3:52pm
Great fossil paul, good find.
 
I,ll try and get some better close up pictures of the marks on either side, they aren,t oval its just that the angle of the holes isn't straight down from the angle of the picture which makes them appear oval. Im not sure what type of creature could have made them. The fossil comes from cambridgeshire, i,ve found quite a few other bits there but only single bones up to now, nothing as good as yours yet. I collect more often in dorset.
 
 
Thanks
Neil.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ophthalmosaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 5:10pm

Neil

The close ups would be great.

Would be interested in seeing the single bones too. Is there any Kimmeridge Clay in that location too or just Oxford Clay?

Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ntnt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 6:36pm
 Close ups of both faces of the bone, it's difficult to capture the marks in a 2d image but i'm pretty sure they are predation marks but of what animal i dont know plesiosaur/pliosaur/ or crocodile?
Im sure somebody will have published a paper on bite marks from the oxford clay though.
Paul theres just oxford clay, no kimmeridge, also some derived fossils from the ampthill clay.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MrPolly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 12:09pm
Hey, Paul. That really is a beauty!  I've been digging around at Lyme every opportunity I get, but I've still not found anything comparable to that!  Is it mid-jurassic?

Mr P.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ophthalmosaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 6:16pm

Neil

I'd take a guess at plesiosaur as too sharp for crocodile and too small for pliosaur but could be any of the three e.g. the small pliosaur Peloneustes since its teeth are quite pointed.


Mr. Polly

Its from the Callovian stage of the Oxford Clay. Found this Muraenosaurus vertebra which is hardly mineralised. It is possible to push a piece of fuse wire right through it between the top and bottom foramina on both sides. Looks and feels just like sub-fossil bone.  Bone from an associated jaw burns in a flame to a fine grey ash. Any thoughts?

Paul




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Post Options Post Options   Quote prep01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 7:12pm
That's an interesting find Paul, the detail is superb
What size is it please and where did you find it?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MrPolly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 8:28pm
" Bone from an associated jaw burns in a flame to a fine grey ash. Any thoughts?"

Don't burn the jaw bone! Big smile

Seriously, I've not come across that kind of fossilization before, but I'm guessing there must be a very high oil content. Have you heard of the cliffs in Dorset that just catch fire occasionally because they are so oil-rich?  Perhaps this is the same kind of thing. The vertebra is certainly a beautiful specimen.

Cheers,
Mr P.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ntnt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 8:50pm
Hi Paul
Brilliant preservation on the vert, great find well done,  imagine finding a whole skeleton that well preserved.
Neil.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote prep01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 9:31pm
Mr P.
I don't know where it's from, but round my way (Bedfordshire) the Oxford Clay (Stewartby member, if they haven't changed it's designation) is certainly organic rich as they use this to cut down on fuel when firing the bricks!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ophthalmosaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 10:29pm

Its from the Callovian bituminous shales so you are right it is a similar strata to the burning cliff of Kimmeridge, the shales of Kilve etc. I've seen the CT scans showing that the foramina are connected but this is the first time that I have seen a physical demonstration of same. One suggestion is that oil was pumped into the center of the vertebrae to maintain the balance of the neck along its length. The neck had 44 vertebrae and was as long as the rest of the animal. One wonders what chemicals may be preserved?

Paul







 
Edited to remove missing pic'.


Edited by Bill G - 07 Feb 2010 at 1:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ophthalmosaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 10:36pm

can't seem to get it to take the third image, trying separate post (OK it doesn't like "&" in file name, also doesn't like long file names):




Edited by ophthalmosaur - 06 Feb 2010 at 10:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MrPolly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2010 at 10:33am
Paul, again, great finds and very interesting stuff. I like the idea that they used hydraulics to maintain the balance of the neck. Do other (short-necked) marine reptiles have similar foramina? I've never noticed anything like that on the ichthyosaur vertebrae that I have.

Cheers,

Mr P.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ntnt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2010 at 11:34am
Hi, good finds again paul, heres photos of the other finds from the same area. Any ideas on what animal the 3 jaw sections on the bottom left are from?
 
Thanks.
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