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Elbert

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MEMO0008 (3).JPG
Hello, found this two weeks ago, just made photo and left it in situ.
Upper Pliensbachien, hawskerense subzone.
Could not sus out what it is...
Who can?

greetings, Bert


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CurtKnap

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Reply with quote  #2 
Bert - What's the scale?
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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #3 
Hello, sorry, no scale...
Lenght of fossil just under 4 inch.
Photo is approx the real size.

greetings, Bert

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TOARCIANJOHN

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Reply with quote  #4 
Hi Elbert, That's a query specimen. Looks like a leaf but is not. The age is problematic for a holothuroid altho similar found in Jurassic rocks in Germany. Alternative is a chiton. I have never seen similar in the Upper Pliensbacian so try emailing Mike Howarth at the NHM.
gOOD LUCK, TOARCIANJOHN

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Reply with quote  #5 
Crushed Pleuroceras in vertical orientation?
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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #6 
Hello, I do not think it is a chiton; @ Toarcian John; can you PM me an email adress for Mike?

greetings, Bert

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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #7 
Hello, it is no crushed Pleuroceras either; it may be the imprint of one landing in the substrate, but I doubt it...

greetings, Bert

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deltapodus

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Reply with quote  #8 
Hi, Bert. Your mystery find reminds me of one I found at Port Mulgrave - Rosedale Wyke if I recall right (although I didn't know its name back then) - photo below: That's the upper surface you're looking at. I've never had an explanation I considered satisfactory, but my best guess is that's the internal mould from a vertically preserved ammonite. My mystery object looks as if it would fit into yours as if one was a mould and the other a cast. Here's hoping both mysteries are solved.



mystery.JPG 


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Matchufella

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Reply with quote  #9 
A new mystery for me is: What is going on with that ruler? :-D
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Reply with quote  #10 
Elbert

Difficult to see on the picture but it seems to have some texture like the back of a lobster. Could it be part of a crushed crustacean of some sort?
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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #11 
Hello, no, it doesn`t have the structure of a crustacian, moment I saw it I thougt it resembeled a (see trough) laurel leaf.
Wich it isn`t is off course...allthough could it be a plant fossil?
This one really has me stumped.

greetings, Bert

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deltapodus

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Reply with quote  #12 
A quick question, Elbert. Looking at the photo, it looks just to be an impression - was there any material preserved in the imprint or is it just an imprint?
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TOARCIANJOHN

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Reply with quote  #13 
Elbert,  is this your pm name. not sure my reply sent

TOARCIANJOHN.  

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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #14 
Hello, yes, it was just an imprint.
And, no, I have not received any PM`s

greetings, Bert

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fossil mad

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Reply with quote  #15 
try filling it with silicone sealant,then remove it when set.  Then you will have a 3D mould of it.might be easier to ID it then
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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #16 
Hello. @ John; got the PM, have sent reply.
@ fossilmad; that wil not be easy with me in Holland and the fossil still in situ in North Yorkshire...

greetings, Bert

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Reply with quote  #17 
Could this be a Pinna sp. bivalve?
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Reply with quote  #18 
I wonder if it's a Sea Pen (an octocoral / Pennatulacean)? Googling 'fossil sea pen' returns some similar impressions. 
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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #19 
Hello, I think the sea-pen is a good candidate for solving this puzzle!
As a matter of fact I was suspecting this, but dismissed the idea because I did not expect such a creature to fossilize...
Seeing the pictures of (fossil) sea pens, I will be the first to admit to be wrong...
Bit of a shame this fossil is left in situ, but it is an SSSI where I found it.
Thanks for your contribution!

greetings, Bert

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Reply with quote  #20 
Its a crushed ammonite section as Tqb mentioned earlier. Your out with the your idea of the beds its just above the grey shales and still in situ the ammonite is a  Lytoceras you can see the ornamental pattern on the shell.
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TOARCIANJOHN

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Hi Bert, Having followed the posts with interest, I am well aware of the rarity of soft-bodied fossils. May I suggest that I contact the Head of SSSI'S at Natural England, who I know well, and propose that either you or, if you are not coming over again,  a nominee by Natural England, collects (saves) the fossil for donation to the Natural History in London. I assume it is susceptible to weathering if left as is?

I WOULD ALSO PROPOSE THAT, IF IT IS A NEW SPECIES, IT WOULD BE NAMED AFTER YOU AS ORIGINAL FINDER.

I think that would be  acceptable to N.E., and if agreed, I will let you know the email address of the contact at N.E. and leave it with you to finalise arrangements..

Hope you are happy with my suggestion.
Greetings, TOARCIANJOHN 

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TqB

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Reply with quote  #22 
Whatever this is, I'm just about sure it's a distorted molluscan shell of some sort, bivalve or ammonite. 
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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #23 
Hello, @ John; yes, please contact the right persons; first to save and register this fossil.
It is every fosselers dream to have a species named after their person and I am no exeption in this...
Allthough that is only when it`s a new one, isn`t it?
It should be fairly easy to relocate since the amount of surface in the hawskerense subzone above the top ironstone is very limited at this location.
I am quite sure it is indeed a fossil of a seapen like creature.
And as it is exposed to the elements, I expect it will not last very long, since it is just an imprint in the shale. As you can see on the photo.

greetings, Bert

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AndyS

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Reply with quote  #24 
Lytoceras sounds good to me or maybe even a xenomorphic oyster that grew on a Lytoceras.
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fossil man 72

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Reply with quote  #25 
i have to agree with andy and tarquin on this , you can clearly see lytoceras shell markings on the fossil and same ribbing , my friend who has been collecting 30 years on this coast has said its deffo a ammonite imprint also , and surely if a sea pen was to fossilise it would be crushed not 3d lol but people see want they want to see and believe what they want to believe also , me being guilty of this also in the past , hope we are proved wrong and it turns out to be a awesome find but until then its a ammonite imprint in my eyes

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mr ammonites

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Reply with quote  #26 
I think it could it be an ammonite bounce trace fossil.
Not dissimular to:- http://blog.everythingdinosaur.co.uk/blog/_archives/2017/05/10/amazing-ammonite-trace-fossil.html
Nice anyway!
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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #27 
Hello, as I have been collecting fossils over 30 years, mostly ammonites, I can assure you all; this is not an ammonite, nor an imprint of one.
I just hope the specimen can be collected, so it can be thoroughly sussed out...

greetings, Bert

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deltapodus

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Reply with quote  #28 
I can see the resemblance to a sea pen, but the question that occurs to me is would such a soft-bodied organism be preserved in 3d rather than as a flattened impression? Presumably preservation of a sea pen would require anoxic conditions with no burrowing organisms. The next question that occurs to me - are there any published examples of Jurassic sea pens from the UK or worldwide?  Google seems to be useless on that front.
Here's hoping the fossil can indeed be collected.

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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #29 
Hello, the imprint I found resembles a sea pen called Virgularia a lot.
The rim round it, wich an imprint of a shell or an ammonite would not have, is clearly visible on the fossil and on the Virgularia I Googled.
Then had a good look back at the photo and realised that the stem of the thing is also there; top left of the fossil, vagely resembling a belemnite.

greetings, Bert

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deltapodus

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Reply with quote  #30 
I've just caused my other half much amusement as I turned the laptop on its side to look at your photo from a different angle - so the long axis was vertical. You'd expect an ammonite impression to show bilateral symmetry (unless pathological). This impression doesn't look to have that, but the "ribs" or "arms" do seem to be offset relative to each other. Seapens show that feature  - apparently it's known as glide reflection. Never heard of glide reflection till today when I read up on sea pens. I started out thinking ammonite impression, but I'm changing my mind and I find myself tempted to visit Mulgrave just to try and get more photos. Not sure I'd be able to locate something that small though, even with directions.
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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #31 
Hello, if you are familiar with the stratigrafy, it will be easy to relocate.
If you expect it to be difficult, I could make a sort of map to guide you there.
The fossil is most visible walking towards the cliff.

greetings, Bert

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TqB

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Reply with quote  #32 
Following deltapodus' post, I rotated the photo and this new orientation suggests that the rim is a figure/ground reversal effect due to the wet reflections.

To me, this looks like fractured shell with longitudinal and horizontal ornament.
If not ammonite, then perhaps bivalve (life position Pholadomya occur around this level for example). Molluscan anyway (and with belemnite at bottom left).

Screen Shot 2017-05-13 at 20.01.35.png 





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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #33 
Hello, the reason I made a photograph in the first place, was that this thing resembeled nothing I had ever seen before.
The edge around it is a structure wich I actually felt with the top of my finger.
And believe me; I have seen many fossils of shells, broken and complete; I have seen ammonite prints of ammonites bouncing the seafloor and even tried to make similar imprints with ammonites in soft material and it does not look alike, so if the explanation would be such a simple thing I would only have glanced it and then forget about it.


greetings, Bert

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polyfenestella

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Reply with quote  #34 
Hi all,

Its great to come across an enigmatic fossil specimen  that promotes a healthy discussion. I have spent a considerable amount of time examining your photograph Elbert, magnifying it, inverting it, and as Tarquin earlier suggested I too am clear in my own mind that it is some kind of shelly fossil such as a bivalve  (oyster) or a partially crushed ammonite seen end on. I have seen many partial remains of such fossils that have caused identification issues over the years.  Its a good specimen to analyse, it is clearly only part of a fossil, the rock surface is obviously curved and there is thankfully quite a lot of fine detail preserved. 

Sea pens are extremely fragile organisms and only the calcified axial rods or individual calcified sclerites tend to be preserved. You do not get ribs or ridges preserved on fossil sea pens as they are predominantly made of soft tissue (called leaves and rachis). Thus you are not going to get such 3D preservation of a sea pen (sticking my neck out here) because of the delicate nature of the soft tissues forming the leaves and rachis. The oldest definite sea pens are of Upper Cretaceous age although there are disputed reports going back to the Triassic.  The zoological affinities of Cambrian - Precambrian 'sea pens' are still somewhat disputed.   A nice specimen to analyse.

Adrian.

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Reply with quote  #35 
Tarquin,
That´s the best explanation I´ve see so far - bivalve !

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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #36 
Hello, found this on Google: File:Virgularia sp-sea-pen-from-chaloklum-scuba-diving-at-koh-phangan-thailand.jpg

Even the polyps on the arms are visible as small dots on the fossil...and I agree; it is very unlikely that it would be preserved as good as it has.
But it`s there...

greetings, Bert

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TOARCIANJOHN

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Reply with quote  #37 
Bert, Just to let you know I have passed the info. re your fossil to Natural Enland. Will let you know their reply. Greetings,  TOARCIANJOHN
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deltapodus

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbert
Hello, if you are familiar with the stratigrafy, it will be easy to relocate.
If you expect it to be difficult, I could make a sort of map to guide you there.
The fossil is most visible walking towards the cliff.

greetings, Bert


Thanks for the offer of a map, Bert. I'll let you know if I'm able to get there.

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polyfenestella

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Reply with quote  #39 
Hi Elbert,

You could also check out  the website of the British Museum of Natural History. I believe it would be possible for you to send your photograph to the museum with some information such as scale, location, stratigraphy etc.. and they will get a specialist to look at it and make an identification for you. 

Its certainly worth pursuing all options. I am the same if I find something and am not sure about its affinities, I will pursue all avenues until I am satisfied. I once sent some Carboniferous insect material to Derek Briggs in the USA for identification. A little over a month ago I carried back a silurian bryozoan from Wenlock Edge to my car, a distance of over a mile, that was located in a block weighing at least 15 kilos - the bryozoan was no more than 3 cm in length ! but I had never come across this particular species before. This is the stuff that makes palaeontology so exciting, but also frustrating sometimes.

Adrian.

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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #40 
Hello, thanks Adrian; I have contacted the BMNH and hope they will be helpfull.
It is only now I realise how very rare this thing is; you could spend a lifetime searching for one and not find it.
As I have visited middle and upper Lias locations all over Europe and therefore have some knowledge on the sedimentation particular for this period, the presence of a seapen explains such a lot about the environment and the circumstances under wich it has fossilized, that it tells a story all by it`s self.
This fossil lays just underneath a stop in sedimentation, the Pliensbachian/ Toarcian border, so it had the chance to fossilize and stay in shape without beeing sqeezed flat immediately.
And if it wasn`t for losing my job, I`d be on the ferry tomorrow...

greetings, Bert

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deltapodus

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Reply with quote  #41 
I know what you mean about being on the beach if it wasn't losing your job, Bert. One of the children in the class wrote a piece describing how their teacher (me) would rather be fossil hunting - can't think why they thought that.

Richard

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deltapodus

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Reply with quote  #42 
Hi, Bert,
All being well, I'm heading to Mulgrave this weekend. Would you be able to email me a map? Or I could email a screenshot of a map if you prefer. If I can locate it, I'll take some more pics - see if shots from a few different angles can shed any light.

Edit - from your description of the stratigraphy, I've got a rough idea of where we're talking, but it's a small fossil in a fairly large bay so your help would be appreciated.

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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #43 
Hello, @ Deltapodus: Richard, I`ve sent you a mail...

greetings, Bert

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estwing

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Reply with quote  #44 
Hi all
Are you sure it isn't Pinna? I've found some north of Robin Hood's Bay years ago

Pinna laqueata jurassic British Columbia Canada.jpg   

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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #45 
Hello, I see what you mean and there is a similarity in the shape, but the rim round it made me certain it is not a (partial) Pinna.
As I`ve seen many a Pinna in the scar near Boulby, it was one of the first things I thought of, this thing is not a shell, because there is no shell material to be seen.
And it lacks the typical striping that a Pinna has.
I am still convinced this is a sea pen.

We`ll see...(pen)!

greetings, Bert

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deltapodus

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Reply with quote  #46 
Seeing this debate of the identity of this find of Bert's, I saw an opportunity to give the class to get involved in a bit of real life science - couldn't think of a better way to put it than that. So, they designed the experiment, I supplied the ammonites and the clay, they got stuck in, sticking the ammonites in the clay and the photos are the end result. Dactylioceras, Grammoceras and Hildoceras were used as controls. I leave it to your judgement if they shed any light on the puzzle. I have my thoughts, but I'm saving them until I've (hopefully) found it on Sunday and had a look for myself - I will post photos if I
succeed.  1st 2 pics - Dactylioceras on the left, Grammoceras on the right. 2nd row - Hildoceras on the left, Lytoceras on the right.


 Dactylioceras.JPG  Grammoceras.JPG  Hildoceras.JPG  Lytoceras.JPG


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ThomasM

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Reply with quote  #47 
This is quite clearly a piece of crushed Pinna or a similar bivalve with a piece of belemnite near the bottom - completely out of the question that it is any kind of soft-bodied preservation. The rim is just an artefact of the photo and the shale cracking around the edge where it is thinner - indeed, one can see that the shale is lifting off unexposed areas of the shell towards the bottom left, showing that the superficial similarity in shape to a sea pen is just where it has happened to be eroding out of the shale. Preservation is clearly calcitic - brownish calcite with small white spots so typical of this level in the lias! etc, etc, etc.
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Elbert

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Reply with quote  #48 
Hello, there is so much certainty in what you write that you must have seen this fossil close up live.

Or did you?

greetings, Bert

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Reply with quote  #49 
It's looking more like a tyre track from the launching of Noahs Ark. Preserved from the great flood.
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fossil man 72

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Reply with quote  #50 
i would go with the tyre track theory over sea-pen any day lol , the bed in question is littered with similar shells and belemnites , i have not been collecting 30 years but i know if i had seen something so rare and amazing i would of collected it and not left it for the elements but i keep an open mind to any possibility as should we all including the fact it is just a shell which in my opinion it is .
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