GuidesMagazineToolsFossilsHunts
Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
wiccaman9

Avatar / Picture

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 399
Reply with quote  #1 
Hi there,

   Can anybody help regards an Archimedes fossil I have discovered in the UK, yesterday.

 Never heard of it's existence in the UK before, but allegedly it exists in USA and 'Europe'.

 Can anyone confirm finding it in the UK?

I've searched for pdf's of UK based specimens, but struggled to find any...?

 Will post photograph shortly

 Cheers

 Aron

__________________
"I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self contained..."
0
Elbert

Avatar / Picture

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 757
Reply with quote  #2 
Hello, if I am not mistaken Archimedes is shown and described in "Brittisch Paleozoic Fossils", published by the BMNH.

greets, Bert

__________________
the search is as valuable as the finds...
0
TqB

Avatar / Picture

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 2,519
Reply with quote  #3 
Hi Aron - there aren't any UK records, and it isn't in the BMNH handbook.
A while ago, I asked Polyfenestella who is a Carboniferous bryozoan specialist (who sometimes looks in here) about UK Archimedes and he confirmed this.

Looking forward to seeing it.

__________________
Tarquin
0
polyfenestella

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 177
Reply with quote  #4 
Hi Aron,


Archimedes is only found In Carboniferous and Permian strata, becoming extinct with most fenestrate bryozoans by the end of the Permian.  

I would be interested in seeing your specimen that you have found. I should be able to identify it, and certainly knowing the quarry that it was found in, thereby allowing me to know the local stratigraphy, would be beneficial.

Bryozoans are notoriously homeomorphic, in that the same overall morphology has reoccurred over geological time and precise identification can be difficult.

Kind regards,

Adrian.


PS. Hi Tarquin !

__________________
Adrian
0
wiccaman9

Avatar / Picture

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 399
Reply with quote  #5 
Hi Bert, Tarquin and Adrian,

 I'm well aware of the Archimedes genus ending with the Permian extinction... but this is from an outcrop near to Fiddler's Elbow Quarry, Glos.

  Bajocian-Bathonian strata - Lower Jurassic.... unless somebody gets a kick out of burying a straw coloured Archimedes specimen (like the other fossils found concurrently) in the vain hope someone will discover it with time in the outcropping gravels, to confuse someone, and with the hope that it will be published online/in a paper somewhere...it seems a scheme fraught with danger of it never being discovered? 


  Specimen is so unusual, but definately Archimedes genus it seems.

  I wasn't aware of Archimedes having been discovered in the UK? I have several specimens, all pale grey in colour, from North America. Can you provide a reference to UK forms. I cannot find any reference at all, pdf or otherwise, of UK based forms...

 I include some photos for your perusal...

 I await your opinions guys

cheers,

 Aron


Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: IMG_8354.jpg, Views: 16, Size: 271.30 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: IMG_8355.jpg, Views: 17, Size: 143.27 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: IMG_8356.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 127.53 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: IMG_8357.jpg, Views: 14, Size: 140.22 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: IMG_8358.jpg, Views: 14, Size: 139.14 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: IMG_8359.jpg, Views: 16, Size: 131.16 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: IMG_8360.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 138.33 KB 

__________________
"I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self contained..."

0
wiccaman9

Avatar / Picture

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 399
Reply with quote  #6 
ps. Hey Bert. Can you provide me which BMNH Palaeozoic fossil edition the UK based Archimedes specimen is in, it's not in my set of British fossil editions.

     cheers

__________________
"I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self contained..."
0
wiccaman9

Avatar / Picture

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 399
Reply with quote  #7 
pps. I do not believe the fossil has been 'derived' from older strata.... I'm not aware of anything of Carboniferous-Permian age in the area?


__________________
"I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self contained..."
0
polyfenestella

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 177
Reply with quote  #8 
Hi Aron,

Thank you for the photos and detailed information. The specimen is probably not an example of Archimedes, which to date has never been found in the UK, but I live in hope.

It is possibly a heavily weathered specimen of the bryozoan Terebellaria ramosissima
described by Paul Taylor in the Journal Palaeontology in 1978. Vol. 21, part 2, pp.357-391. I wonder if it might be possible to clean your specimen to reveal more detail, unless it is too far gone.


I would, however, add that I once went on a field trip in Co Durham to look at some Carboniferous strata and discovered Jurassic belemnites left by some students on a previous visit ! 

Kind regards,

Adrian. 

Two photos of Terebellaria, one showing a heavily weathered growing tip (sorry out of focus, poor photocopy taken from Pauls paper) and the other showing a mature well preserved colony. 

IMG_0102.jpeg  IMG_0173.jpg 



__________________
Adrian
0
Barrow Museum

Neogene Newbie
Registered:
Posts: 17
Reply with quote  #9 
From the photos, it does resemble a Nerineid gastropod.  I'd even go so far as to suggest Bactroptyxis as the genus.  The scale and stratigraphical position is right and I see no structure to suggest bryozoan origin.  These gastropods are sufficiently abundant and varied in the Middle Jurassic to have been suggested as the basis of an alternative zonal scheme instead of ammonites, which can be notoriously rare in Bathonian UK sequences.
0
polyfenestella

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 177
Reply with quote  #10 
I have to agree here, it might well be a Nerineid gastropod. I have only seen a couple of examples in the field, just partials but there is a strong likeness. It would be interesting to see if on further cleaning any structure is evident. Love these conundrums - good to get different perspective on specimens. 
__________________
Adrian
0
Elbert

Avatar / Picture

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 757
Reply with quote  #11 
Hello, yes, I was mistaken; it is not in the BMNH booklet but in the Hamlyn nature guide and that doesn`t give the UK as location, but Europe (allthough the UK is also Europe...)

greets, Bert

__________________
the search is as valuable as the finds...
0
wiccaman9

Avatar / Picture

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 399
Reply with quote  #12 
Hi there,

  The fossil doesn't show much fine ornamentation, with cleaning and loupe magnification - little signs of being covered in small cavities, regularly spaced to suggest zooid spaces of Terebellaria sp, etc. I guess I'll tentatively put it down to being a Bactroptyxis type high-spired gastropod...

 Thanks for your help guys....

 I deal quite a bit with Visean fossil faunas....I too will keep a look out for that elusive British Archimedes specimen...... Eureka! indeed!

 Aron

__________________
"I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self contained..."
0
polyfenestella

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 177
Reply with quote  #13 
Hi Aron,

Must be a Bactroptyxis type Gastropod then. I would expect to see a little zooid type structure in the core of the ‘spire’ of Terebellaria even if it were heavily eroded and weathered.

Please do keep a lookout for Archimedes - you never know. Also keep an eye out for any fenestellid fenestrate bryozoans and any Pennireteopora type fenestrates as well. I am always interested in seeing new material.

Adrian

__________________
Adrian
0
wiccaman9

Avatar / Picture

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 399
Reply with quote  #14 
Hi Adrian,

   I have lots of Fenestella species from Staffordshire-Derbyshire areas, with fenestrae of all different sizes. I'll sort out a few and photograph them for your perusal, the differences in fenestra sizes, etc would suggest several species? How can you differentiate 'Fenestella sp, which I assume are benthic/anchored bryozoans from the dendritic-like/fenestella-like zooid containing portions of the Archimedes bryozoan colonies? The traditional corkscrew Archimedes is the central axis for the spiralled net like colony?

 Cheers

__________________
"I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self contained..."
0
polyfenestella

Cambrian Rockhound
Registered:
Posts: 177
Reply with quote  #15 
Hi Aron,

You are right in your assumption that different fenestrate dimensions can equate to different species. Individual species can for example be recognised by external morphological characters on the obverse surface ( the side with zooecial apertures on), such as the existence of a median carina (ridge) running along the length of branches, existence of nodes on such a ridge and the number of apertures projecting into a fenestrate. To further complicate matters over the last thirty or so years the genus Fenestella has been subdivided into several new genera on the basis of internal morphological features alone.

You really need to see the obverse surface of a fenestrate to begin to facilitate identification. I look forward to seeing some photos and I will try to identify them for you. There are undoubtedly many new taxa in the Carboniferous here in the UK which have yet to be described !

Adrian

__________________
Adrian
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.



Discussions on fossils, fossil hunting, rocks, locations, and identifying your finds.
(C)opyright 2018 - UKGE Ltd and UK Fossils - Contact us