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Doggerfan
Elbert wrote:
Hello Roger, I can understand that you have your doubts; making a bit of the keel visible would probably solve a lot of questions.
For now I think that Gagaticeras sp. could be a possible candidate...

 

greetings, Bert


Thanks Bert. That looks like a good candidate. I'll check into that further.
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
I find it interesting and educational to compare the same fauna from different sites with varied types of sedimentation and preservation. Since a lot of you spend your time collecting in the lower Jurassic, I thought I could begin by showing some ammonites from some continental European sites which I have collected. Here are some typical finds which are exactly the same species from the same time as on the Yorkshire coast, but their preservation is quite different.
The first one is Dactylioceras athleticum from a Quarry in Fuegerolles, Normandy, France. The quarry is unfortunately closed now to collectors, but I was lucky enough to visit it before they shut the doors. The preservation, as also with the following Dactylioceras commune is as a somewhat calcified mold.

A330._D.athleticum.1.jpg 

A335a.1.jpg 

The next one is also Dactylioceras athleticum, but this time from Schnaittach in Bavaria, Germany. You find these ones on farmers' fields in the area in an extremely hard limestone which is not easy to prepare. They have a good separating layer, though, but unfortunately it usually lies beneath the shell, which makes for a lot of hard calcified molds.

A362.1.jpg 


Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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fossil mad
nice fossils Roger,great preservation and detail on the first two.

The last one is more like our whitby ammonite preservation.
adrian
"When can we go fossil hunting again?"
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Doggerfan

fossil mad wrote:
The last one is more like our whitby ammonite preservation.
adrian


Yes. Just the pyrite is missing.

Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Moving along with the Toarcian ammos, I'll now show a group of small Catacoeloceras sp. also from the quarry in Fuegerolles followed by a Catacoeloceras dumortieri from the Lafarge quarry in Belmont d'Azergues near Lyons, France. The phragmocone is calcified and the shall pretty well weathered away.

A340.1.jpg 

A724.1.jpg 

Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Here's one from the bifrons Zone in Belmont. Porpoceras verticosum. Can you find this species in Yorkshire?

Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Ooops! Forgot the photo.

A730a.1.jpg 


Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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mr ammonites
Wow how nice!

Ammonite!
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Doggerfan
Thanks for the comment.

Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
I forgot about this post. I'd actually intended on continuing on, so I'll do that now. Better late than never. The following pictures are of mostly ammonites with a few Nautiloidea interspersed. They are all from the bifrons zone of the lower Toarcian, the first ones originating from the quarry mentioned above in Fuegerolles with the same kind of preservation as already mentioned.

A311.JPG 
Hildoceras bifrons. 6cm.

A322.JPG 
Hildoceras lusitanicum. 4cm. This used to be called H.levisoni.

A339.JPG 
Harpoceras sp. 2 small samples, the largest of which measures 32mm. The overwhelming majority of the finds there were of this size.

N5b.jpg 
Cenoceras sp. 15cm. This one has a crinoid holdfast at the bottom.


Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
The next ones are basically the same things from the same zone with the difference that they come from the other above-mentioned quarry at Belmont near Lyon which shows a different type of preservation.

A725.jpg 
Hildoceras bifrons. 5.5cm. With Serpula tricristata.

A727.JPG 
H.bifrons again, but with a circumference of 17cm. a somewhat larger version. It's preserved as a calcified mold.

A731b.jpg 
Harpoceras subplanatum with shell intact. 12cm.

N26.jpg 
Cenoceras jourdani also with partial shell and a few clinging oysters. 11cm.
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Here are some more of the same with yet again a different type of preservation, this time pressed flat in the sediments at Oehmden near Holzmaden in Germany.

A224a.jpg 
A large Harpoceras sp. at 19cm. with its Aptychus within the outer whorls.

Here's a close-up of the Aptychus. This type of find is not uncommon at this site.
A224b.1.jpg 


I'll finish off for the evening now with a Lytoceras siemensi. 15cm.
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Oops, I must be getting tired. Forgot to post the photo.

A225.jpg 
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Let's move up in the stratigraphy to the thouarsense zone. This zone, particularly the fallaciosum subzone, is extremely well-represented at Belmont by abundant localized accumulations of fossils, many of whose shells are still intact and colorfully modified by the iron compounds present in the matrix.

A732.1.JPG 
A compound block with 4 Pseudogrammoceras sp. ammonites, one of which is on the reverse side. The block is 26cm. long.

A732a.jpg 
A closeup of Pseudogrammoceras fallaciosum from the above block.

A732b.jpg 
From the same block Pseudogrammoceras ?pseudostruckmanni. You can hardly tell the difference between the two, which is why I'm uncertain about the ID.

A720a.jpg 
Grammoceras thouarsense 8cm.

A752c.a.JPG 
Podagrosites ?pseudogrunowi. 9cm. Not particularly well-preserved, but nevertheless somewhat of a rarity.

A606aba.JPG 
Pseudolilia emiliana, 7cm. with P.fallaciosum in the background.
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
The town of ƒÆ’¢â‚¬°vrƒÆ’‚©cy in the county of Calvados in Normandy has become well-known for well-preserved finds ranging from the lower up into the middle Jurassic which have been found there in the past at various construction sites. I visited one a few years ago where the thouarsense Zone was exposed. I was only there for half a day, but managed nevertheless to come away with some nice finds.

A287.1.JPG 
A grouping of 4 samples of Grammoceras thouarsense measuring 10x8x4cm

A287.2.JPG 
From another point of view.

A269a.JPG 
Lytoceras jurense. 15cm.

A269b.JPG 
Here showing it's "cat's paw", the septal wall.

N11a.JPG 
Concluding this post with another Cenoceras sp. nautilus. 11cm.
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Now I'll move us back to Germany and up into the upper Toarcian at the clay pit in Mistelgau, Bavaria, which was until recently a favorite spot for collectors from all over Europe. It has now closed down and shall soon be turned into a biotope. It was particularly well-known for its "Belemniten-Schlachtfeld", or Belemnite Battlefield as it would be translated into English, where not only tons of belemnites, but also a few complete articulated Ichthy- and Plesiosauriers were excavated from the variabilis Zone. It wasn't unusual to find at least a few vertebrae or paddle bones amongst the belemnites, as exemplified in the photos below.

Be60._R5.1.jpg 
Here's one with a paddlebone on top. 15x13cm.

R4.1.jpg 
This time with a vertebra measuring 6cm. across.

Be66.1.jpg 
This plate measures 36x30cm. and contains the belemnites Dactyloteuthis irregularis, incurvata and semistriata, along with Acrocoelites subtriscissus, oxyconus and pyramidalis.

Gastropods could also be found there including the 2 examples below.
G100b.1.jpg 
Amphitrochus subduplicatus. 15mm.

G132b.1.jpg 
Toarctocera subpunctata. 3cm. Pyritized.

T.subpunctata is quite commonly found in the aalensis Zone, although mostly not complete with its "wings", along with a relatively abundant pyritized ammonite Fauna, some examples of which are pictured below. They come particularly from the torulosum Subzone. Mostly only the phragmocones are 3-dimensional, the living chambers having been pressed flat and dissolved over time.

A568.1.jpg 
Cotteswoldia sp. on a plate measuring 8x8cm.

A576.1.jpg 
Cotteswoldia finds, each measuring about 2cm.

A577.1.jpg 
Hudlestonia serrodens. 2cm.

A574.1.jpg 
Pleurolytoceras hircinum. 28mm.

A573.1.jpg 
Pleydellia sp. 3cm.
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Well, according to the view count, a good number of visitors have dropped in since I started posting again, so I guess it's worth carrying on for a while. I would appreciate a few comments, however, if anyone has anything to say.

Now I'll drop us down in the timescale back to the Pliensbachian. This stage is named after a small stream that runs through the town of Bad Boll located halfway between Stuttgart and Ulm. Quenstedt and his cronies did the original stratigraphical field research there in the good old days. Another classical site in those layers is near Aalen: The Goldbach near Reichenbach. The upper Pliensbach is exposed here, specifically the  Margaritatus Zone, which we still call the Lias delta 1 here in Germany. The original site is now in a protected area, but I managed to get permission from a farmer who allowed me to search for fossils in a stream that emptied into the creek. The shells of the fauna, mostly ammonite phragmocones, are converted into pyrite and sometimes pyrite concretions surround them, which can make for a very pretty picture. Here are some of the things I found there.

A5b._A.gibbosus.jpg 
Amaltheus gibbosus. 3.5cm.

A5a._Amaltheus_margaritatus.jpg 
Amaltheus margaritatus. 5.5cm.

A192.jpg 
Pleuroceras salebrosum. 4cm.

A188.jpg 
Pleuroceras solare. 5cm. Although part of the shell is squashed, I hung onto this one because of the pyrite ball attached to it.

A220.jpg 
P.solare. 4cm.

A68a._Pleuroceras.jpg 
Pleuroceras sp. 2.5cm. With pyrites as also the one below measuring 32mm.
A5e._P.transiens.JPG 


A191.JPG 
Pleuroceras transiens. 3.5cm. Originally named P.reichenbachensis, but the name was discredited as it was discovered that it's the same species as P.transiens, which was named earlier.

That's it for the time being. To be continued. Good night. Sleep tight.


Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
The clay pit known as the "Holzbachacker" on the outskirts of the small town of Buttenheim north of Nuremberg in Bavaria has become well known for its well-preserved finds of ammonites and other fauna from the upper Pliensbachian. Collectors have been flocking there from all over Europe ever since word got out several years ago that it seemed to be following in the footsteps of its predecessor in Untersturmig. Particularly the pyritized ammonites belonging to the family of the Amaltheidae are highly coveted. They not only have a pyritized steinkern though, but many of them are excavated showing the original shell substance still intact, although they have lost their color and are mostly white. But you can get lucky and find some with color pigment in the form of stripes on the shell as shown in the next two photos.

A500.1.jpg 
Pleuroceras cf. solare. 3.5cm. It comes from one of the many banks in the spinatum Zone, as do all of the finds I'll be showing this time.

A499.1.jpg 
Pleuroceras sp. 32mm.

I'll show a few more things now before I head off to bed.
A461a.1.jpg 
A pyrite concretion with "ammonitengrab"-ammonite grave- with early Pleuroceras sp. measuring 8x5cm.

A133abc.1.jpg 
Left Pleuroceras apyrenum top P.salebrosum and right P.transiens. The plate measures 13x10cm.

The next three are Pleuroceras salebrosum

A127._Pleuroceras_salebrosum.1.jpg 
A492.1.jpg 
A493.1.jpg 


Now comes Pleuroceras solare to the lineup.
A79._Pleuroceras_solare.1.jpg 
This one has complete keel extension.

A481.1.jpg 
This one has an obvious growth anomaly at the upper left. A large portion of this species in this area have pathological shell formations.

A587.1.jpg 
Another pyritized one whose white shell has fallen off during excavation. Sometimes you remove them on purpose if they aren't so nice in order to create a pretty "golden" picture.
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
By the way, one thing I forgot to mention is that in certain banks, the steinkern is calcified, rather than pyritized. If you look closely at the pictures I've already posted, you may notice that on the one or the other sample.
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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TqB
Beautiful material, Roger - and I'm particularly very interested to see your belemnite plates.
Tarquin
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Doggerfan
TqB wrote:
Beautiful material, Roger - and I'm particularly very interested to see your belemnite plates.


Yes Tarquin, the Belemnitenschlachtfeld is an amazing phenomenon. The "belemnite battlefield" is used in this area to mark the border
between the Lower and Upper Toarcian. At the time of deposition, which
occurred over a long stretch of time, this area was on a shallow shelf
in a narrow straight between the BƒÆ’‚¶hmischen Massiv (mainland in the
east) and the Rheinisches Insel (island in the west). There was also
possibly a threshhold bank called the Ries Schwelle to the south which
rose above the water surface during regressive times. During and after
this time, the deposits were condensed (phosphorite concretions) and
were subject to intensive turbulent currents which again and again mixed
and redeposited them. This caused the broken bits, cracks and roll
marks on the rostren which can be seen. This layer is isochrone, which
means it stretches over hundreds of square kilometers in the Franconian
Alb. A Fischsaurier "cementary" was discovered a few years ago in these
layers close to Esslingen, over 200 kilometers southwest of Mistelgau, which led some researchers to postulate a
methane catastrophy as possible cause for the death of these creatures,
but it's a controversial proposal as usual, and the death of the
belemnites were unquestionably due for a great part to more natural causes, since they
were layed down long before as well as during and after the sudden
death occurence of the Ichthyosauriers.
Christian Schulbert, perhaps the best authority on Mistelgau, laid 200mƒâ€š‚² of the field free in 1999 using a fire hose and took a picture of it which can be seen in Steinkern Heft 15. Unfortunately I don't have the photo in my files, but I do have a couple more smaller bits in my collection which I can show here. They both contain the species which are already mentioned above.

Be61.1.jpg 
Be63.1.1.jpg 



                                       
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
While I'm at it here, I'll show a few more things from Buttenheim. Now moving on to Pleuroceras transiens in various appearances. They range between 3-5cm. in circumference.

A113.1.jpg 
A408.1.jpg 
A148b.1.jpg 
A471.1.jpg 


Now moving up to the next horizon in the stratigraphy and meeting the ammonite which gives its name to the zone. Pleuroceras spinatum.
A820a.1.jpg 
This one measures in at 7cm.

A584a.1.jpg 
Twins. Each measuring 6cm. across.

A872.1.jpg 
Like the Dactys of Yorkshire they sometimes make a pretty picture when cut and polished. 6cm.

Here is another P.spinatum which was found a few miles south near Altdorf. It has a calcified shell and measures 6cm.A369a._Pleuroceras_spinatum.1.jpg 

Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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TqB
Thanks for the photos and info on the belemnite battlefield, fascinating stuff.Seems to be a different genesis than the Yorkshire coast one at the top of the Falciferum Zone.

Nice to see Dactyloteuthis as well - rare in Britain (a Tethyan genus?), I must look for some at Ravenscar where they occur.
Tarquin
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Doggerfan
The long and prominent one on the second to last plate that I showed on page 1 is D.incurvata. The ones at the top are D.irregularis, which as far as I know can be found at Ravenscar. The long one pictured below is D.semistriata....hmmm...For some reason the system here suddenly doesn't seem to like my pictures and won't let me upload them right now. I'll try again later.


Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Pity you can't edit your own posts here. I just remembered that D.semistriata is pictured on the very first plate with the Ichthyosaur paddle bone. It's the long one in the middle.
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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TqB
Doggerfan wrote:
Pity you can't edit your own posts here. I just remembered that D.semistriata is pictured on the very first plate with the Ichthyosaur paddle bone. It's the long one in the middle.


Got it, thanks!

You should be able to edit posts - from the "post options" button - but there's a qualifying number of posts required I believe.
Tarquin
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Fossil hunter
Great stuff! Love the belemnite battlefield and the beautifully preserved ammonites.

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Doggerfan
TqB wrote:


Got it, thanks!

You should be able to edit posts - from the "post options" button - but there's a qualifying number of posts required I believe.


You're welcome. Then I guess I haven't reached the golden number yet since I tried looking there already.

Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Fossil hunter wrote:
Great stuff! Love the belemnite battlefield and the beautifully preserved ammonites.



Thanks   I'll carry on then now by moving down into the Sinemurian. I haven't been in those layers very much. partially since there are no more available natural exposures in southern Germany and I don't live close enough to the areas where construction sites reveal them and usually only find out about them when it's already too late. I did spend a couple of summers rummaging about at a dump near Rottweil, however, so there are some things to show as a result of that. The sedimentation is very similar to that of the Jurassic coast in England. Extremely hard clayish limestones, which makes for lots of fun preparing the beasts. Shell-preservation is however a rarity.

A265a.1.jpg 
Arietites bucklandi. 32cm.

A348.1.jpg 
Arnioceras ?semicostatum. 8.5cm.

A350.1.jpg 
Asteroceras ?obtusum. 14cm.

A352.1.jpg 
Vermiceras scylla. 8cm.

A353a.1.jpg 
Coroniceras sp. 5.5cm.

N14.1.jpg 
Cenoceras sp. 27cm.

Here are two ammonites which were worth cutting and polishing.
A12.1.jpg 
Arietites sp. 20x20cm.

A297.1.jpg 
Another Arietites sp. with calcite crystals in the septal chsmbers.

Here is some additional fauna aside from the cephalopods.

G102b.1.jpg 
Pleurotomaria anglica. 4cm. long.

L32a.1.jpg 
Plagiostoma pectinoides. 3.5cm. long

L90a.1.jpg 
This one is interesting. I can't remember for the moment what the phenomenon is called, but this oyster settled on an ammonite and its shell took on the form of its host.

L7.1.jpg 
The omnipresent oyster Gryphaea arcuata. 6cm.

Be16.1.jpg 
Nannobelus sp. 11.5cm.

Be17.1.jpg 
Nannobelus acutus. 4.5cm

Just one more ammonite to show now which I discovered on a chance stop at a quarry on the way back from holidays in Austria a few years ago.

A234a.1.jpg 
Agassiceras ?scipionianum. 7cm. Quite a different preservation from what we're used to in Germany. This comes from the Adneterkalk - a hard and brittle red limestone found in Salzburgerland and stretching down to Montafon in Vorarlberg where I found it.

My excursion has now come to an end. Thanks for looking in.


Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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valh
Hello! Very good collection! Thank you for showing them.
Valerij
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TqB
Good to see Sinemurian belemnites! The 11.5cm Nannobelus looks more like Passaloteuthis - it's very large and Nannobelus doesn't have apical furrows.  Could it be lower Pliensbachian?




Edited by TqB 2014-02-16 11:37:44
Tarquin
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Doggerfan
valh wrote:
Hello! Very good collection! Thank you for showing them.


Thanks Valh
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
TqB wrote:
Good to see Sinemurian belemnites! The 11.5cm Nannobelus looks more like Passaloteuthis - it's very large and Nannobelus doesn't have apical furrows.  Could it be lower Pliensbachian?






On closer inspection I would say that you may very well correct. I found it over 10 years ago on the flanks of a stream where the Sinemurian was exposed at the base, but since it came from higher up it probably came out of a Pliensbachian horizon. I still had a question mark on it in my file since I wasn't really in the know about the stratigraphy then and I haven't been back there ever since.
I would change the ID to Passaloteuthis sp. now and tentatively to P.?bisulcata. What do you think? Thanks for keeping your eyes peeled.

Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Fossil hunter
Love the polished ammonite sectionsƒ¯‚¼‚They are beautiful
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Doggerfan
Fossil hunter wrote:
Love the polished ammonite sectionsƒ¯‚¼‚They are beautiful


Thank you very much.
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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TqB
Doggerfan wrote:
TqB wrote:
Good to see Sinemurian belemnites! The 11.5cm Nannobelus looks more like Passaloteuthis - it's very large and Nannobelus doesn't have apical furrows.  Could it be lower Pliensbachian?






On closer inspection I would say that you may very well correct. I found it over 10 years ago on the flanks of a stream where the Sinemurian was exposed at the base, but since it came from higher up it probably came out of a Pliensbachian horizon. I still had a question mark on it in my file since I wasn't really in the know about the stratigraphy then and I haven't been back there ever since.
I would change the ID to Passaloteuthis sp. now and tentatively to P.?bisulcata. What do you think? Thanks for keeping your eyes peeled.



Passaloteuthis are difficult to pin down without a horizon and a population (like Dactylioceras!) but if it's lower Pliensbachian I might go for P. ?elongata - bisulcata is supposed to be Spinatum Zone upwards, looks very similar though...

I've been meaning to start a Jurassic belemnite thread so I'll do some photos soon - see what sort of mess I get into with names!


Edited by TqB 2014-02-16 17:22:06
Tarquin
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Elbert
Hello Roger, impressive collection, especially the Buttenheim material, I think, is beautiful.
Your Asteroceras? obtusum doesn`t look like one; I think that it is another species altogether; more towards Uptonia sp.

Since I will be visiting Buttenheim this spring, I wonder if you can give me any leads towards finding P. salebrosum and P. Apeyrenum  at this site.

Thanks in advanceBig smile,

 

greetings, Bert
the search is as valuable as the finds...
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Doggerfan
TqB wrote:


Passaloteuthis are difficult to pin down without a horizon and a population (like Dactylioceras!) but if it's lower Pliensbachian I might go for P. ?elongata - bisulcata is supposed to be Spinatum Zone upwards, looks very similar though...

I've been meaning to start a Jurassic belemnite thread so I'll do some photos soon - see what sort of mess I get into with names!




Thanks for your thoughts, Tarquin. Looking forward to your new thread
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Elbert wrote:
Hello Roger, impressive collection, especially the Buttenheim material, I think, is beautiful.
Your Asteroceras? obtusum doesn`t look like one; I think that it is another species altogether; more towards Uptonia sp.

Since I will be visiting Buttenheim this spring, I wonder if you can give me any leads towards finding P. salebrosum and P. Apeyrenum  at this site.

Thanks in advanceBig smile,

 

greetings, Bert


I guess I'll have to have a closer look at that ammonite. It was identified for me by someone who should know, but you never know...does anyone else have an opinion here?

As far as Buttenheim, I'd suggest you buy the Steinkern special edition on it. You'll find all the info you're seeking and more in it.

http://www.steinkern.de/inhaltsangaben/884-heft-2.html
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Doggerfan
Come to think of it, I forgot about these two. The first one is Uptonis cf. regnardi and the second a juvenile Uptonia sp., both of which are obviously pyritized and come from the lower Pliensbachian, where, as far as I know, the majority of this species originates. I haven't heard of them coming out of the Sinemurian, but please correct me if I'm wrong. This is why I'm doubting your judgement, Bert, if you'll excuse me.

A751.1.jpg 
A773.1.jpg 
Best wishes from the Lake of Constance. Roger.
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Elbert
Hello Roger, I can understand that you have your doubts; making a bit of the keel visible would probably solve a lot of questions.
For now I think that Gagaticeras sp. could be a possible candidate...

 

greetings, Bert
the search is as valuable as the finds...
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